Bear with me, this is a long rant, but it's stuff that NEEDS to be said.

I have been playing this game for nearly 6 months, and continue to hope that the Covenant race will get a re-balance placing them somewhere close to Nihilim or Thul in power. But alas, I am consistently disappointed, as the other races remain severely overpowered compared to Cov, for PvP AND PvE, and Cov is left to rot as the one with the least thought put into any aspect of it...

There is just so much about Cov that seems like they were intentionally gimped, in favor of the other 2 races. Charge, although nice for PvE (provided you bring TONS of Knights with you), is just horribly inadequate for PvP. 4 seconds just does not come close to comparing to the 16 seconds the other races can slow for. Granted, it's -80% move speed and skill disabling, but 6.5 move speed, for example, goes to almost motionless with Hamstring or Aggravating Lash, the same as with Charge, but they last 400% as long...

Knights, if Charge is popped at maximum range, barely make it to the target before the effects wear off. This is something that happens often with the autocast bug, where regardless what your setting is in the options, it'll do the exact opposite, turning skills on when you've set them to off, or off when you've set them to on.

I'd like to see Charge's duration increased by a few seconds, to make it formidable against the other slowing abilities. Maybe to 6 or 7 seconds, 8 or more might make it too overpowered.

Also, Forceful Blow does just that, it blows... Any chance you could think of a more impressive skill than simply 200 hp damage? Maybe give Charge the damage, similar to how Hamstring does hp and morale damage, and make the T3 skill something more innovative?

I have nothing bad to say about Thundering Hooves, it's a great skill, and I doubt I'd trade it for any other.

Another thing that is odd is that the other races' basic ranged squads get their armor piercing passive at T2, whereas Scouts have to wait until T3, which means while everyone is at T2 squad ranges, Cov seriously sucks. Could you please swap Sniper's Eye with Camouflage, so that those playing Cov don't have to wait until T3 Scouts before being similarly effective?

Preachers are OK in my opinion, but not nearly as fantastic as everyone makes them out to be, the only actually useful skill they possess for PvP is Vigor of the Faithful. Revive is somewhat useful in PvP, but doesn't turn the tide at all in favor of Cov. Testudo is almost worthless anymore, since there are just so many skills, mobs, squads, what have you, with armor piercing properties. Which brings me to the main problem with Covenant.

Every race has a strength, Thul have strong melee attack, Nihilim have strong ranged attack, and Cov's strength is supposed to be in its high armor, but as I said before, that armor is almost completely negated by so much anymore, that it's worthless compared to awesome power of the other 2 races. With this is mind, Cov have no redeeming factor except for a slight edge in PvE, courtesy of Charge, which is why I have picked them the last few eras. Would be nice if Cov's strength were more useful than a slight damage reduction over the likes of Thul or Nih.

I watch players of other races, and in PvE, every one of their squads is useful for what they're purpose is. Cov has 3 squad types that are useful in PvE (Knights, Scouts, Preachers), the others just conspire to hinder progression.

Footmen and Custodes sound nifty, with their "high" armor, but in actual use, they get walked all over by mobs.

Paladins are pointless, mainly because they're not an actual support squad, unless you consider Absolution, which compared to the AURAS the other elite supports get, is woefully underwhelming. +10% melee attack for 10 seconds... Martyrdom with its 1k hp aura instantly sounds nice, but the THREE THOUSAND DAMAGE dealt to the Paladin himself, the skill is worthless. A "heal ball" as I've heard it referred to as (3 or more Paladins), is not easy to pull off nor effective at minimizing damage received. Crusader's Strike is abhorrent for several reasons, mainly because it only affects the Paladin and also because it's such a low amount of life stealing that it's wasted on dodging mobs, the added melee attack power is nice, but when you factor in the abyssmal duration and equally bad cooldown time, pointless...Who thought up these awful skills?!!?

Longbowmen are OK once they reach T2, since at T1 they deal less damage compared to T3 Scouts, unless you've purchased Focused Weaponry which reinforces my statement since no squad should rely on trait skills to actually become effective, or else new players would be left with no options. Ray of Truth is a decent passive ability, but it does not even come close to bringing them on par with the other elite rangers. Ministers of Pain have naturally high ranged attack power and a skill that makes them indispensable, Telekinesis. Cranial Resonance is not half bad either. Astral Walk and Spiritual Guidance are 2 excellent skills given to Emberfangs, and Blood Boil isn't particularly powerful, but it serves to allow pulling from a long distance, the same as Telekinesis can pull. Where was thought put into the skills given to Longbowmen?!

I simply cannot understand the humdrum skills given to Covenant when the other races have interesting and powerful skills, skills useful in both PvE and PvP. Which brings me to the next hindrance.

Cataphracts are horrible, pointless in both PvE and PvP. I managed to eke some use out of them in PvP, but it's not easy, and they're no match for concerted attacks from other elite squads or the rival DL. Who decided it was a great idea to make all their skills auras, and none of them passive? Scratch that, why aren't any of them useful? I mean, come on, Hymn of Velya or Curse of Meni for their 250 hp damage or 250 morale damage over 10 seconds or the coup de gras, Hymn of Leroc, -1.4 move speed for 16 seconds, with a full minute to cooldown, totally despicable...

Thul and Nih trump these skills in spades, their elite assault have excellent skills. Prefects get a speed increase (not very useful, but still better than any of the Cataphracts' skills), a teleport, and a targeted stun. Black Hides get some game breaking skills...A slowing passive aura (just as powerful as Thundering Hooves), a speed increase which ALSO increases their melee attack power, and a completely unbalanced and game-breaking aura that completely stuns every hostile in the area for FIVE SECONDS while dealing morale damage to boot. Cataphracts get auras that are neither passive nor useful...

Custodes are OK for PvP, but being the supposed strength of Covenant's arsenal, they falter against the strengths of the other 2 races. Because anyone with Pride of Fools and/or a good amount of armor piercing (or can outrun them, it's not hard) can wipe them out in seconds...

It saddens me that with all the rebalancing done, nothing has been done to make Cov effective in the slightest against the other races. To prevail in PvP with Cov you have to be superior in every way with PvP ability, or you WILL lose.

Please, I beg of you, make Cov a good race to choose, so I don't have to choose one of the other 2 races next era just to be able to win at PvE and PvP without losing my mind...

My thoughts on this,

first off, just like you said, every race has its specialty. For Covenant, this is tanking/melee units. In other words, the two defining items for Covenant are Custodes and Revive. Both of these are almost missing from your analysis, so I thought I'd at least point out that these ARE great and they DO do what they should. And no other race is as good at tanking (because they do not have these two), so it does not help too much to compare how Covenant is weaker in those other race's specialty areas.

PvE:
You describe ONE way of playing Cov in PvE, the charge-freeze. This is admittedly a pretty good, albeit slow way to progress at high NM levels.

It is, however, by no means the ONLY way to play Cov, and quite probably not the way Cov was MEANT to be played. Cov is the only race that can really tank, so DO try to tank. Ok, at high NM levels your custodes' huge armor is pointless, but the custodes are STILL the best tank units in the game. 1 custodes and 2 priests can and will tank NM8 mobs successfully, if the custodes is well equipped (with +hp).

Pally pwnage (just bring 6 paladins, stagger martyrdom and then put it on autocast), is also a valid and easy way to play Cov. Note the 3k damage is reduced by armor, then the 1k is healed, so in actuality, a wellequipped paladin only loses maybe 600 or 700 life from using it. The next pally's martyrdom (going off 10s later), will fix that. Anyhow, this playstyle is very very slow (pallies don't deal a lot of damage), but also extremely robust (works agains NM9, world bosses, double creep camp missions etc.).

It is even possible to play pure kiting approaches (lots of ranged and some priests to replace losses).

Another way I might teaser here is to use the Sword of Deadly Poison, which is really really really incredibly strong and Cov is the best race for using it (the other races have to kite it with a tribelord or specter, which is a bit annoying and doesn't work well on all mobs).

PvP:
Covenant have always been much more difficult to play well in PvP than any other race. The main reason here is that the other races have one dominating unit which can be spammed to win. Not so with covenant, you need to mix the units and micromanage them. Overall, the Cov units DO get to the same strength, but a lot more skill is needed to fight at a similar level. In other words, they are not necessarily weaker, just much harder to play. This does lead to Covenant being shunned in the PvP scene (by most contestants), and it IS unfair. I do agree they might make them a little stronger. Note that improving charge a little, though good, would do nothing to change the big picture since everybody disables charge anyhow.

Also note that if the units are made even a slight bit stronger, then Cov could quickly be the BEST, even though hardest race to play in PvP. Similar to Zerg (at some point in the past) in Starcraft. Leading to all the high-level PvPers then HAVING to play it (the way most are playing Thul now). Then people will cry again about Cov being too strong.


Armor Piercing:
One thing I absolutely agree on with you is that nowadays (era 4 here on the Lockpick server, soon era 5), armor has become MUCH less valuable than it used to be. This is because in PvP, everybody has Focused Weaponry and Bolts of Fear. In PvE, if you want to keep the pace of the other grinders, you need to fight high NM mobs and those have high armor piercing, which severely weakens the Cov tanking approach (and ONLY that, which is why I think the armor piercing given by NM is pointless). Over all, this weakens the whole Covenant race something fierce, and they should be rebalanced to compensate.


Race Balance:
First off, I do agree that Covenant is the weakest race right now, everbody does.

In PvP, balance is certainly a good thing and because of aforementioned reasons I do believe Cov might be improved a bit.

In PvE, however, I do not necessarily believe that all races should be equal. In the old version of Dreamlords, they were RADICALLY different, they are much much more similar now, but just different enough to encourage different playstyles. That is a good thing in my book. You are not bound to a race, just keep looking around until you find one that you are comfortable with. Also, I still do believe Covenant to be the most newbie-friendly race because things work they way newbies expect them to and because trait points etc. aren't really needed to make this race work. (For Thul, the assault army abilities are almost necessary to play efficiently, for Nihilim, the ranged army abilities are super-helpful.)


Happy slaughter,
Melor


P.S.: If you're playing Covenant solely for the assault freeze, then you probably should check out Thul instead, they are better at this, as that is the Thul playstyle.

The main problem with covenant, in my opinion, is that they specialize in tanking and slow infantry and infantry is not really useful in either pvp or pve as far as I've seen.

Let me first say, I'm not trying to be argumentative, but I have many counterpoints to what you've said.

Melor Arios wrote:For Covenant, this is tanking/melee units. In other words, the two defining items for Covenant are Custodes and Revive. Both of these are almost missing from your analysis, so I thought I'd at least point out that these ARE great and they DO do what they should. And no other race is as good at tanking (because they do not have these two), so it does not help too much to compare how Covenant is weaker in those other race's specialty areas.

They are missing mainly because those who play as the other races tend to think these are strengths, when in fact they're merely mediocre. Custodes are pretty nice, for PvP. Revive is pretty nice, for PvE. Neither skill has much use in the other aspect, without an intense amount of micromanagement.

The main problem is that there are many things in this game that drastically if not completely negate armor values, rendering Cov's supposed strength moot. Whereas, the availability of debuffs to lower melee (Thul) or ranged (Nihilim) attack power is non-existant. This tips the scale to a severe degree to any race that's not Cov...
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You describe ONE way of playing Cov in PvE, the charge-freeze. This is admittedly a pretty good, albeit slow way to progress at high NM levels.

As far as I'm concerned, there IS no other method for high NM maps, namely NM8 womb maps. Knights can't hit hard, but they slow mobs to a standstill. Custodes can't hit hard, but they're also slow and, most importantly, can't hold aggro, which is their whole point. It has been a long time since I used Preachers or Paladins in PvE, because in my mind, if I'm getting hit, I'm doing something wrong. Every other method, in comparison, seems woefully slow and cumbersome.
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It is, however, by no means the ONLY way to play Cov, and quite probably not the way Cov was MEANT to be played. Cov is the only race that can really tank, so DO try to tank. Ok, at high NM levels your custodes' huge armor is pointless, but the custodes are STILL the best tank units in the game. 1 custodes and 2 priests can and will tank NM8 mobs successfully, if the custodes is well equipped (with +hp).

It is the only effective way to complete NM8 or 9 maps. I can't see why they would expect Cov players to waste 5 times, or more, as much time trying to get a tanking method to work. So much time is spent waiting for the Custodes to gain enough threat so they can hold aggro, then spending ages dealing minuscule damage, then even more time cleaning up the mess, that it fails to be a method, and becomes an eccentric indulgence instead.
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Pally pwnage (just bring 6 paladins, stagger martyrdom and then put it on autocast), is also a valid and easy way to play Cov. Note the 3k damage is reduced by armor, then the 1k is healed, so in actuality, a wellequipped paladin only loses maybe 600 or 700 life from using it. The next pally's martyrdom (going off 10s later), will fix that. Anyhow, this playstyle is very very slow (pallies don't deal a lot of damage), but also extremely robust (works agains NM9, world bosses, double creep camp missions etc.).

I have tried many times to make this method work, but why would anyone use this method when the "charge-freeze", as you called it, can kill NM9 mobs with ease, provided one knows how to properly manage threat, and avoid the Knights gaining aggro. Also, equipping Paladins with armor increasing gear just so they don't get hit quite so hard by their own skill (since it's quite unlikely they will ever grab aggro), seems a bit strange to me.

Why do Paladins have to be such a hassle to use, though? They're ELITE, for crying out loud! They should be better than Preachers! I, and anyone else who plays Cov, should WANT to use Paladins, but they're just no comparison to the basic support, saving me some expedition size sure, but not making me more formidable. The only reason to really research Paladins anymore, is for the trait points, in the hopes that eventually they will be more than just an experiment gone wrong...

By the by, Martyrdom isn't autocastable. =P
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It is even possible to play pure kiting approaches (lots of ranged and some priests to replace losses).

I have tried many times to make this method work, and it simply fails when fighting high NM mobs. When you're up against speedy mobs with 9+ move speed, for instance Ghoulish Grave Robbers, there is no possible way to kite them without some method of slowing, otherwise you're just standing there soaking up damage (in my opinion, this is not intelligent strategy). Unless the mob enrages at some point during the battle, which they often do, and starts obliterating your LBs, or the oft-maligned times they start attacking the support unit, because you were running everyone around so much, that the Preacher grabbed aggro by mistake. The mob eventually dies, but you're left with a 5-10+ minute cleanup, provided the mob didn't kill an entire squad during its tirade...
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Another way I might teaser here is to use the Sword of Deadly Poison

If only I knew what that was...
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Covenant have always been much more difficult to play well in PvP than any other race. The main reason here is that the other races have one dominating unit which can be spammed to win. Not so with covenant, you need to mix the units and micromanage them. Overall, the Cov units DO get to the same strength, but a lot more skill is needed to fight at a similar level. In other words, they are not necessarily weaker, just much harder to play.

I have heard of people spamming Custodes in PvP, but could never get it to work against any race except other Cov players...

They just cannot close on their target before being obliterated, or at least before their morale breaks, which is as good as death.

There is no way you can tell me that Cov units compare even slightly to those of the other races, no chance whatsoever. The only way to win against the other races is to be vastly superior to them in all respects. Until something is done to level the playing field, Cov will remain the worst possible race, in PvP and to a lesser extent, in PvE.
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Also note that if the units are made even a slight bit stronger, then Cov could quickly be the BEST, even though hardest race to play in PvP.

There is no way a few slight tweaks and enhancements could compete with Thul, which is the current "most powerful, least thought-intensive" race. Simply spam Rawpaws and Black Hides, and maybe throw in some Emberfangs for fun, if things get hectic, toss a Tribelord and/or Chieftan/Patriarch out to assist the assault spam.

Ground Slam is perhaps the most imbalanced skill I have ever encountered, yet it remains in the game, even after Thul players have even said the same. The skill is broken beyond belief, and Cov still languishes at the bottom of the heap, with nothing to even slightly compare with it.

Actually, Thul assault have only 2 skills that aren't OP when compared to skills Cov and Nih have. Quick Paws and Nightmarish Chase. The others have nothing even remotely close to compare to. Even Hamstring does damage along with morale damage, Lash only does morale damage.
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In PvE, however, I do not necessarily believe that all races should be equal.

I'm not asking that they be equal, per se, just give Cov a fighting chance.
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...because trait points etc. aren't really needed to make this race work.

Focused Weaponry is a necessity for LBs at T1, otherwise they don't become more useful then Scouts on NM8 maps until they're T2...Because double damage on next to nothing is still next to nothing, whereas Scouts can naturally have 40% armor piercing and have Volley every 30 seconds.
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P.S.: If you're playing Covenant solely for the assault freeze, then you probably should check out Thul instead, they are better at this, as that is the Thul playstyle.

I have tried Thul this era on my alt, and it's OK, but I'd rather not jump ship simply because Cov's not working correctly, yet.




PS: I had a long reply typed up, almost ready to post, when I had to go make dinner. When I came back a few hours later, I found my brother had been on doing his own surfing, and had closed the browser window completely.

This was my attempt to try to recreate that thought process, so forgive me if I didn't hit on points as well as planned...

It was typed perfectly before, and the words just don't flow the same twice in a row.

Yes we do not have the Sword of Deadly Poison on the AGE server

the thing why covenants are weaker than the other races lies deep down in the game mechanics, or to be more specific: in the way defense works.

in dl1 defense was an easy but effective calculation: dmg-def = recieved dmg
tanks worked well and they could tank even higher missions without to much trouble, in fact covenants where the strongest race because they had the strongest tanks (and the strongest ranged endgame unit, but thats another story).

now in dl2 it is an % value, making tanks much weaker and useless without equip.

so if it would become the old dl1 calculation again (of course with reworked numbers), tanks would get increadible usefull, instead of totaly useless (if you arent using the sword of deadly poison).


the other thing that makes tanks useless in pve is the armor piercing from the NM aura, it should either be removed (if the current defense system is kept) or drastically reduced (if the old dl1 system gets back into the game)


on a side note i want to point to an old thread: http://www.dreamlords.com/posts/list/7772.page
(remember: almost all skills which are written in there are increadible overpowerd and where written before i understood a lot about the dl2 game mechanics and unit balance, but i think the cove spells are an step into the right direction)

I believe too that Covenants have problems.
In PvE non-kiting strategies either don't work or are too slow to worth the effort.
I don't complain however since preachers have rivive and a setup of 2 preachers 2 knights and 3 LB makes a kiting strategy easy at NM6 maps so it's ok.

However the problem is in PvP.
As I posted in another thread:
"After much research I think that only two units really need a boost:

1) Cataphracts "slow skill" skill needs a boost.
I think the easiest way is to combine their slow spell a 1 sec stun aura for the enemy units that come into area.

2) Paladins life-steal spell needs a boost.
I think if their life-steal spell became applicable to "morale steal" too it would be all it needed.

I think that the changes I suggest are balanced (even TOO prudent, but it's good to err in the safe side!). The rest of the Covenant units/spells are ok (at least not TOO underpowered).
Also I find that the units of rest of the races are ok and balanced.
(Well, if cataphracts don't get a boost though, Thuls AoE is too much!)"

Let's see here, Cov has the most powerful PvP hero of all the races, Vicar. Vicar is the anti-range unit spam. He deals 4000 damage to everything in an area - armor. So it only ends up being like 3000 but still way more than enough to kill ranged up through T2 elite range. Yes that's his T3 ability but his T1 and T2 are kick butt too. His T1 deals 120 dps and 180 morale loss/s and it is an aura 50m wide that's sick. His T2 is Pride of Fools on steroids. 16 seconds of -90% armor, yes they do get 40% extra attack which is still 10% better than illusion of victory which gives 50%. Not to mention he has the most HP of any hero with 12k at T3. Yes you can't win just by using Vicar, but if you know how to use Cov's other units and you have vicar that can really counter the other races. The main problem comes against Thul's heroes.

Oh, and Cov's first hero doesn't suck either if you use her right. Morale aura spell and healing aura spell with a range of 50m. You spam custodes with 20k HP put her right in the middle of them. Give them another 1250 armor from her T1 spell +3000 armor from their T3 = massive damage reduction. And you can heal 2000 HP to the whole group and regen their morale.

Cov is not the weakest, rather Cov takes the most thought and planning to use effectively. If you can consistently win in PvP with Cov then you really are great at this game. Shai Tan is the guy to ask about Cov.

Pavlos, the changes you mention seem to take away from cov's strength in some ways, namely in PvE. Also, Doc is correct in saying that Cov can be VERY good, as can any race when used expertly. There are three types (main types anyway) of people that play this game: Those who choose a race and master it, those who jump around races, and those who just don't really care.

Also, this thread is over a year old, and there was little to no chance of a re-balance then, so that remains now (at least until Q2 with the possible total reset)

@Doctorno
Vicar is not that good. He is worse than the Thul elite hero both as attack and as support hero.
I can't make the exact comparison against Nihilim because they have too diferrent abilities for direct comparison, but I can't say he is much better (or much worse) than them either.
The regular Cov hero is just as good as the rest regular heros.
If Cov don't kill all ranged units of the enemy first, custodes are just useless. And with the fast units they have now, it is too difficult to kill them, and this is not a matter of player's skill, it is just that the "protecting" abilities (stun/slow) of other races are much better than Cov's "attacking" abilities.

Do the test: Cov 2 slow and 2 fast, Thul 1 ranged 3 fast, Tell me what happened!
I predict the following:
1 Cov fast is killed before it has the chance to reach the ranged.
the other Cov fast reaches the ranged, but is killed before he kills it.
Meanwhile his slow units have not even reached the enemy.
Put heros and DLs in and tell me if the result has changed in Covs favor
Now do the other test:
Cov 1 slow and 2 fast, Thul 3 fast, Tell me what happened!
Now factor in the fact that Cov's speed is cut in half using the slow unit.
And factor in the fact that Cov have no better strategy other than this to play.
I'll be happy if Shai Tan commends on that too.
Note: use elite Tier3

@Lightcaster
I meant these effects to come in addition to the effects that Cov already have.
To combine them with the skills that they already have. Not to replace them.
And fyi, even with those abilities, I would still not use the support unit,
and I'm still not sure If I would be able to kill ranged units.

PS. This is not rant, these are facts. I don't count in my (dis-)ability!